Saturday, October 13, 2007
Lay-Led Bible Class
If the pastor is the "man" and the congregation is the "bride," then IF there were to be a lay-led Bible class, would it matter whether the teacher was a man or a woman? Because laymen (both men and women) are to be receiving from the pastor, not usurping his place as teacher. Maybe the appearance of it makes a difference, though??
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I've wondered about this before, too. I think it all depends on what you consider Bible study to be.
ReplyDeleteIf Bible Study is nothing more than a bunch of people gathering around talking about some "esoteric" teachings (approaching Scripture in a very textbook way, just 'digging in' like any other book, looking for the 'deeper meaning', etc.), and that's that, then I'm not sure if it'd make much of a difference. So long as the congregation understood that's what's going on and that the woman in no way, shape, or form is assuming a pastoral role while doing this. After all, I don't think just men are limited to teaching about theology. Maybe it would be best done outside of the church, but as long as everyone knew what was going on and why, I'm not sure there'd be a problem.
If, however, Bible Study is catechesis; if it's an extension of the preaching of the pastor on Sunday morning; it it's goal is not mere knowledge, but bringing people to Jesus, strengthening them in that faith, forgiving their sins, making them "encounter" Christ - then I'd say that job falls to the pastor very specifically. If he can't do it, then I would say it should be an elder or other knowledgeable man in the congregation who speaks on behalf of pastor.
But like I said, it depends on what Bible Study is.
You could probably figure out what I think. But I'm a male, chauvinist pig, soo...
:-)
As a side note kind of related to this topic, if I had my way (because I'm all legalistic and stuff), pastors would do all Bible Studies. There would be no "children's Sunday School" - they would sit in pastor's class and learn and be catechized from birth on up. I've never sat in an adult Bible class that I didn't think a 12 year old couldn't understand (at least most of it) - and if they were in there from early on, I'm sure they'd learn a lot more a lot faster.
But, hey, that's just me...
But Nathan, why would I want to go to a book club with the Bible being the book-of-the-week? What I want is the preaching and catechesis and encountering Christ.
ReplyDeleteBut, hey, that's just me ....
;-)
"If he can't do it, then I would say it should be an elder or other knowledgeable man in the congregation who speaks on behalf of pastor."
ReplyDeleteIf the pastor can confer those responsibilites to someone else, why not a woman? One is either in the office or not- none of this 'temporarily while the pastors away' stuff. I'd say Sus... (eugh, I just can't) Mrs. Gehlbach is right on this being an appearance thing.
Where people didn't have pastors, they still studied and read the bible. Mothers teach the faith to their children. One could make some sort of WELS authority argument I suppose...
Although specifically to Nathan here- I'm reading an article Scaer wrote on women ordination and the office of pastor, and he has a fascinating discourse on the teaching and preaching office being the same thing. Borrow it from me when I'm done.
>>Where people didn't have pastors<<
ReplyDeleteDoes that happen? Or is it a hypothetical? Remember what Pastor said about Luke 24 -- it is necessary that the Christ suffer and rise and that it be PREACHED.
>>(eugh, I just can't)<<
LOL. I could poke you and encourage you to trrrry it. But I know how you feel. There are a few people that I just can't call by first names.
>>One could make some sort of WELS authority argument I suppose...<<
As I've been reading Scaer the last few days on millenialism, abortion, infant baptism, and why the Reformed are wrong about the Sacraments, I have just luv-luv-luvved his overriding theme. The reason behind these things are not the rules that we usually hear given. Neither is the reason the "apologetic" that explains why the doctrine makes sense, or the logic behind it. The reason is always that "all theology is Christology" and how it all fits with the Lamb of God being imputed with our sin and our being given His righteousness. Things that I knew were right, but had only legalistic reasons for,... Scaer is making obvious WHY is matters, and what is all has to do with the Gospel!
"If the pastor can confer those responsibilites to someone else, why not a woman?"
ReplyDeleteWell, this isn't quite the Gospel answer, but 1 Corinthians 14:34 I think answers that.
Christ, in His Office, appoints pastors to preach in His stead. After thinking about this, I'm not sure why, following that example, it's wrong for a pastor to do the same for the sake of the Gospel.
Christ does not establish the Office of the Ministry in order to stop the Gospel from being preached. The Office is a gift so that Christ may be preached purely, rightly, in all places. So where the pastor cannot be, he cannot grant someone else to preach in his stead, as Christ calls him to do - there, while the pastor is gone, the Gospel must stop being preached. Of course.
I don't think so...
">>Where people didn't have pastors<<
ReplyDeleteDoes that happen? Or is it a hypothetical? Remember what Pastor said about Luke 24 -- it is necessary that the Christ suffer and rise and that it be PREACHED."
Dr. Quill gave a presentation a few weeks back about the church in Russia. There was a parish who went for 50 years without having a pastor (this was a more extreme one- but there are lesser time periods there too). During that time they never had the sacrament- doing such without a called and ordained servant of the word never even crossed their mind ( I know, contrast that respect for the office with America today). But when the bishop of the fledgling Lutheran church there heard about them, and went- and did a service- he saw people in the crowd who were able to mouth the words of institution as he read them simply because they'd been studying the bible, and had memorized their catechism- for that long time period.
You can also read about early Lutheran parishes in America, which ha traveling preachers and such.
So yes- it happens.
"Christ, in His Office, appoints pastors to preach in His stead. After thinking about this, I'm not sure why, following that example, it's wrong for a pastor to do the same for the sake of the Gospel."
Well... one could say this is what ordination is- but one doesn't briefly confer the office of ministry to someone. One isn't a pastor for the week the real pastor is out of town. Both because the bible doesn't teach that, and it destroys the objective ground of faith.
Christ places people into the pastoral office- not pastors and not the church. Otherwsie, there's no reason a pastor couldn't decide to let a woman be pastor for awhile. The office of the ministry wasn't something designed by the church for good order (as WELS teaches)- it is an office established by God. Sure, he uses means to place people into that office (the laying on of hands at ordination)- but that doesn't mean we can pick and choose who gets in willy nilly.
Y'know, there's something rattling around in my brain, but it's going to take time to type it up. And I can't do that right now as I still have about 150 pages to go on the editing before tomorrow morning. EEEK! But I have a question or two, and a few non-religious examples that I want to throw out there.
ReplyDelete